1
00:00:21,670 --> 00:00:19,590
all right i'm on skype with dr david

2
00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:21,680
jacobs how you doing david

3
00:00:24,710 --> 00:00:23,680
fine thank you martin and thanks for

4
00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:24,720
joining us and

5
00:00:30,870 --> 00:00:27,840
you are a retired professor of history

6
00:00:32,549 --> 00:00:30,880
at temple university and um are you

7
00:00:35,350 --> 00:00:32,559
still keeping active

8
00:00:36,150 --> 00:00:35,360
well yeah so i am i'm working on my

9
00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:36,160
books uh

10
00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:38,480
i've been claiming to do this for for a

11
00:00:42,709 --> 00:00:40,160
number of years now

12
00:00:44,950 --> 00:00:42,719
and uh it's very slow going but i'm

13
00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:44,960
actually making a pretty good headway

14
00:00:48,310 --> 00:00:46,960
with with what three books that i'm

15
00:00:51,189 --> 00:00:48,320
doing well

16
00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:51,199
um i have listened to interviews with

17
00:00:54,549 --> 00:00:51,520
you

18
00:00:57,590 --> 00:00:54,559
in the past and i i really appreciate

19
00:01:00,709 --> 00:00:57,600
the work you've done i also appreciate

20
00:01:02,790 --> 00:01:00,719
your stance and because i felt although

21
00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:02,800
you felt this way many many years ago

22
00:01:06,710 --> 00:01:04,640
when i started getting into this whole

23
00:01:09,830 --> 00:01:06,720
phenomenon i also

24
00:01:12,789 --> 00:01:09,840
was rather skeptic of abduction

25
00:01:13,670 --> 00:01:12,799
abductees and all that and but i always

26
00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:13,680
believed in

27
00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:15,360
betty and barney hill i lived in the

28
00:01:19,270 --> 00:01:17,360
portsmouth new hampshire area and i

29
00:01:20,469 --> 00:01:19,280
always thought travis walton's story was

30
00:01:22,789 --> 00:01:20,479
really solid

31
00:01:24,550 --> 00:01:22,799
so you know i started becoming a little

32
00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:24,560
bit more open-minded

33
00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:26,080
and that's kind of can you kind of

34
00:01:31,510 --> 00:01:28,000
explain your beginnings

35
00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:31,520
in ufos and how you eventually got

36
00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:34,640
involved in the abduction aspect well i

37
00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:36,320
i got interested in the

38
00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:39,600
um ufo phenomenon when i was uh

39
00:01:42,710 --> 00:01:42,320
an undergraduate at the ucla this was

40
00:01:46,469 --> 00:01:42,720
back

41
00:01:50,630 --> 00:01:46,479
in the 19 teens and

42
00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:50,640
i uh for some reason or another i just

43
00:01:54,469 --> 00:01:52,720
got interested in it i have no

44
00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:54,479
no explanation for it i never saw

45
00:01:58,870 --> 00:01:56,240
anything

46
00:02:00,950 --> 00:01:58,880
did you say the 19 teens well let's just

47
00:02:03,910 --> 00:02:00,960
say the 19 mid 1960s

48
00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:03,920
it's all the same to me now okay all

49
00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:11,190
then i uh uh i i you know once i started

50
00:02:14,790 --> 00:02:11,760
reading

51
00:02:16,309 --> 00:02:14,800
in it uh in 65 and 66 i i

52
00:02:18,550 --> 00:02:16,319
it really kind of captured my

53
00:02:20,790 --> 00:02:18,560
imagination even more

54
00:02:21,990 --> 00:02:20,800
by the time my wife and i went to

55
00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:22,000
graduate school at the university of

56
00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:22,800
wisconsin

57
00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:25,920
in 1966. i was already pretty much

58
00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:28,160
obsessed with the subject

59
00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:31,280
and unfortunately i

60
00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:33,840
inflicted that obsession on my friends

61
00:02:37,030 --> 00:02:34,720
in wisconsin

62
00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:37,040
who i'm sure grew really tired very

63
00:02:41,990 --> 00:02:38,480
quickly in hearing me

64
00:02:44,710 --> 00:02:42,000
expound about ufos um

65
00:02:46,390 --> 00:02:44,720
i remember thinking that that that the

66
00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:46,400
ufo phenomenon was

67
00:02:49,990 --> 00:02:48,800
um that was was gonna about to present

68
00:02:52,869 --> 00:02:50,000
itself i i

69
00:02:53,589 --> 00:02:52,879
fell prey to these uh and now i realize

70
00:02:55,910 --> 00:02:53,599
uh

71
00:02:57,430 --> 00:02:55,920
wrong-headed ideas that that they were

72
00:02:59,110 --> 00:02:57,440
gonna land on the white house law there

73
00:03:02,550 --> 00:02:59,120
was gonna be a you know

74
00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:02,560
a big sort of disclosure by the aliens

75
00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:04,480
themselves of their presence

76
00:03:08,309 --> 00:03:07,840
and i remember thinking yeah it's 1970

77
00:03:10,229 --> 00:03:08,319
now

78
00:03:12,670 --> 00:03:10,239
it's 19 this is the year it's going to

79
00:03:14,390 --> 00:03:12,680
happen the first year of the decade in

80
00:03:17,830 --> 00:03:14,400
1970

81
00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:17,840
and uh pretty soon obviously uh

82
00:03:21,750 --> 00:03:18,720
predicting

83
00:03:23,350 --> 00:03:21,760
behavior of these objects and and uh

84
00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:23,360
and what you know what they're gonna do

85
00:03:28,630 --> 00:03:25,200
uh is an inex

86
00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:28,640
science to say the least and so

87
00:03:34,070 --> 00:03:32,080
um i uh but i i you know i was

88
00:03:36,789 --> 00:03:34,080
very very much into into the whole world

89
00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:36,799
by by 68

90
00:03:41,030 --> 00:03:39,840
um i had become a field investigator

91
00:03:43,509 --> 00:03:41,040
quote-unquote for the

92
00:03:45,430 --> 00:03:43,519
aerial phenomena research organization

93
00:03:47,750 --> 00:03:45,440
and i was actually knocking on doors and

94
00:03:50,149 --> 00:03:47,760
doing footwork and following up on cases

95
00:03:52,869 --> 00:03:50,159
in the in the madison wisconsin area

96
00:03:53,429 --> 00:03:52,879
and all and uh and i just sort of kept

97
00:03:56,789 --> 00:03:53,439
with it and

98
00:03:59,509 --> 00:03:56,799
eventually around the uh when i was

99
00:04:00,630 --> 00:03:59,519
starting to write my dissertation in in

100
00:04:03,509 --> 00:04:00,640
history

101
00:04:05,030 --> 00:04:03,519
i i was very much interested in social

102
00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:05,040
cultural history

103
00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:06,640
and i spent six months doing a

104
00:04:10,550 --> 00:04:08,400
dissertation uh

105
00:04:12,229 --> 00:04:10,560
doing research for a dissertation about

106
00:04:17,110 --> 00:04:12,239
the image of women

107
00:04:20,229 --> 00:04:17,120
in a very early film history pre-1915

108
00:04:25,110 --> 00:04:20,239
and uh and i did six months of that

109
00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:25,120
all the while obsessing on ufos

110
00:04:31,430 --> 00:04:28,160
and so uh i eventually um

111
00:04:33,350 --> 00:04:31,440
went to uh uh a uh

112
00:04:35,030 --> 00:04:33,360
another professor to work with and i

113
00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:35,040
changed my dissertation

114
00:04:40,150 --> 00:04:38,320
to uh the controversy over unidentified

115
00:04:43,270 --> 00:04:40,160
flying objects

116
00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:43,280
and uh wound up getting my phd uh

117
00:04:46,629 --> 00:04:46,160
in that only the second phd ever awarded

118
00:04:49,189 --> 00:04:46,639
uh

119
00:04:50,230 --> 00:04:49,199
with an area of ufo studies in it in

120
00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:50,240
some way although

121
00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:54,160
wow that was in 1973 but but the subject

122
00:04:58,629 --> 00:04:56,400
wasn't about ufos itself it was about

123
00:04:59,749 --> 00:04:58,639
how the society and segments of the

124
00:05:01,990 --> 00:04:59,759
society

125
00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:02,000
treated the subject over the years to

126
00:05:06,790 --> 00:05:05,120
get to the point that by 1973

127
00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:06,800
we didn't know anything at all about

128
00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:08,240
ufos

129
00:05:11,430 --> 00:05:10,800
and why why was that why did that come

130
00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:11,440
about and

131
00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:13,840
why why don't we you know and uh and

132
00:05:19,189 --> 00:05:15,840
that book was eventually published by

133
00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:19,199
um uh um the universe

134
00:05:25,909 --> 00:05:22,320
university of indiana press uh in

135
00:05:30,310 --> 00:05:28,390
so since then i i just got uh i kept

136
00:05:32,629 --> 00:05:30,320
doing it doing it doing doing it

137
00:05:33,909 --> 00:05:32,639
uh bonnie betty hill interesting case uh

138
00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:33,919
came about abducted

139
00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:36,800
uh who knows with ufo researchers you're

140
00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:38,400
looking for patterns

141
00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:40,720
and if you don't see patterns you're not

142
00:05:43,189 --> 00:05:42,160
you're not seeing anything

143
00:05:45,350 --> 00:05:43,199
you know what i mean you're seeing

144
00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:45,360
something that is not

145
00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:48,800
really unusual so ufos had to

146
00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:50,560
fit into a pattern and they did fit into

147
00:05:54,629 --> 00:05:52,880
a pattern same thing with abductions

148
00:05:55,189 --> 00:05:54,639
with abductions if you don't find a

149
00:05:58,550 --> 00:05:55,199
pattern

150
00:06:01,430 --> 00:05:58,560
uh um there's nothing to it

151
00:06:02,309 --> 00:06:01,440
one case does not a pattern make stop

152
00:06:04,629 --> 00:06:02,319
anybody hill

153
00:06:07,510 --> 00:06:04,639
we're not contactees the charlatans from

154
00:06:09,909 --> 00:06:07,520
the 1950s who claimed to take rights to

155
00:06:10,629 --> 00:06:09,919
uh to the moon into venus into uranus

156
00:06:13,270 --> 00:06:10,639
and then get

157
00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:13,280
the secrets of the uh of the universe

158
00:06:16,469 --> 00:06:15,600
and also the secrets of their propulsion

159
00:06:20,230 --> 00:06:16,479
system this was

160
00:06:23,909 --> 00:06:20,240
really really big in the 1950s uh

161
00:06:25,909 --> 00:06:23,919
particularly uh well amongst uh

162
00:06:27,110 --> 00:06:25,919
charlatans but also amongst serious ufo

163
00:06:28,950 --> 00:06:27,120
researchers too they

164
00:06:30,710 --> 00:06:28,960
for some reason or another it still

165
00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:30,720
escapes me they were fixated

166
00:06:35,590 --> 00:06:34,160
on propulsion but um speaking of

167
00:06:36,390 --> 00:06:35,600
propulsion what's that in the background

168
00:06:39,029 --> 00:06:36,400
i hear

169
00:06:39,830 --> 00:06:39,039
oh somebody's mowing their lawn oh okay

170
00:06:42,550 --> 00:06:39,840
all right

171
00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:42,560
but it was a mother ship perhaps if you

172
00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:44,080
want to wait a second i can

173
00:06:49,029 --> 00:06:48,240
close a second window sure okay here we

174
00:06:52,390 --> 00:06:49,039
go

175
00:06:55,749 --> 00:06:52,400
uh walking to the window

176
00:06:59,510 --> 00:06:55,759
i'm about to close it

177
00:07:03,909 --> 00:07:01,909
um so where were we going just so so the

178
00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:03,919
point is is that i i was not a great

179
00:07:07,189 --> 00:07:05,520
believer in abductions i mean it was

180
00:07:09,589 --> 00:07:07,199
ufos were the end-all

181
00:07:11,510 --> 00:07:09,599
and the be-all this is where the air

182
00:07:12,309 --> 00:07:11,520
force entered in this is where the cia

183
00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:12,319
entered in

184
00:07:16,309 --> 00:07:14,800
this is where where presidents had this

185
00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:16,319
you know statements about them from time

186
00:07:20,309 --> 00:07:16,960
to time

187
00:07:22,230 --> 00:07:20,319
this is where scientists look at nobody

188
00:07:23,830 --> 00:07:22,240
looked at abductions nobody nobody

189
00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:23,840
nobody nobody and i certainly wasn't

190
00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:24,880
going to because

191
00:07:30,629 --> 00:07:28,800
the ufos was where i was centered

192
00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:30,639
although the barney betty hill case was

193
00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:32,560
interesting no doubt about it

194
00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:36,080
it wasn't until 1982 uh

195
00:07:41,350 --> 00:07:39,360
when i when i i met bud hopkins

196
00:07:43,430 --> 00:07:41,360
uh that i became interested in the

197
00:07:47,110 --> 00:07:43,440
abduction phenomenon he

198
00:07:49,909 --> 00:07:47,120
sucked me into his lair and uh

199
00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:49,919
and i remained there ever since and um

200
00:07:53,909 --> 00:07:50,800
and bud and i

201
00:07:57,350 --> 00:07:53,919
became very very very close friends for

202
00:08:00,629 --> 00:07:57,360
for for the rest of his life actually so

203
00:08:03,270 --> 00:08:00,639
uh so bud and i kind of worked in tandem

204
00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:03,280
uh we we we did not we shared the same

205
00:08:06,629 --> 00:08:05,120
abductees from time to time especially

206
00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:06,639
if they moved to philadelphia or moved

207
00:08:11,110 --> 00:08:08,000
up to new york

208
00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:11,120
um uh but we shared information mainly

209
00:08:15,029 --> 00:08:11,440
that

210
00:08:17,189 --> 00:08:15,039
out trying to to figure out

211
00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:17,199
what is going on here how can we address

212
00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:18,160
this and

213
00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:20,080
uh you know what kind of state what kind

214
00:08:26,710 --> 00:08:22,800
of assumptions can be made and all that

215
00:08:28,790 --> 00:08:26,720
however historians work but not not

216
00:08:30,950 --> 00:08:28,800
they work alone the history is is a

217
00:08:31,909 --> 00:08:30,960
lonely field you work alone primarily in

218
00:08:34,310 --> 00:08:31,919
history

219
00:08:36,149 --> 00:08:34,320
every once in a while there'll be two

220
00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:36,159
historians to write a book but 99

221
00:08:41,190 --> 00:08:38,240
percent of the time is

222
00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:41,200
a singly authored study and so that's

223
00:08:44,630 --> 00:08:42,080
basically

224
00:08:45,990 --> 00:08:44,640
what i did i worked alone in this field

225
00:08:48,470 --> 00:08:46,000
for a long long time

226
00:08:50,230 --> 00:08:48,480
and uh and still working in it from time

227
00:08:53,269 --> 00:08:50,240
to time although in recent

228
00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:53,279
months uh in the last year things have

229
00:08:56,470 --> 00:08:54,000
slacked off

230
00:08:58,550 --> 00:08:56,480
considerably for me i think mainly

231
00:08:59,910 --> 00:08:58,560
because i'm retired now i need to do

232
00:09:03,750 --> 00:08:59,920
these books i don't

233
00:09:05,430 --> 00:09:03,760
uh follow up on people who write to me

234
00:09:07,590 --> 00:09:05,440
unfortunately i'm sorry for everybody

235
00:09:10,630 --> 00:09:07,600
out there who might be a victim of me

236
00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:10,640
and um uh and and so i

237
00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:14,800
i i'm i'm elderly now

238
00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:17,440
i'm an old man now and i know i gotta

239
00:09:20,630 --> 00:09:19,360
get these books out of my system and

240
00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:20,640
once that's done

241
00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:23,040
i'm to hang up my brains and i'm just

242
00:09:27,030 --> 00:09:24,560
going to watch television and i'm going

243
00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:27,040
to be happy

244
00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:29,040
well that's good at least uh at least

245
00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:30,880
we'll know what happened to you

246
00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:32,560
right that's good i want to know what

247
00:09:38,070 --> 00:09:34,959
what kind of issues has

248
00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:38,080
doing what you've done caused you

249
00:09:41,509 --> 00:09:39,760
in your academic profession has it

250
00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:41,519
caused you any trouble

251
00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:49,110
okay this is not a subject that you want

252
00:09:54,070 --> 00:09:50,800
to deal with in academics

253
00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:54,080
academics can be fairly close-minded

254
00:09:57,430 --> 00:09:56,160
especially when it comes to being

255
00:10:00,630 --> 00:09:57,440
abducted by

256
00:10:01,030 --> 00:10:00,640
little beings from outer space that that

257
00:10:03,750 --> 00:10:01,040
just

258
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:03,760
doesn't make it into the academic world

259
00:10:07,030 --> 00:10:05,279
uh

260
00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:07,040
it doesn't make it in intact so let's

261
00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:08,800
put it that way

262
00:10:12,310 --> 00:10:11,200
the problem is is that most academics

263
00:10:15,430 --> 00:10:12,320
understand

264
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:15,440
instantly or faster than

265
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:19,440
instantly a whole range

266
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:22,640
of psychological issues that could

267
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:25,920
allow people to present with

268
00:10:32,310 --> 00:10:29,040
abductions i've been abducted they know

269
00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:32,320
about hypnosis they know about uh

270
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,640
psychological problems they know about

271
00:10:37,910 --> 00:10:36,160
all sorts of things that

272
00:10:39,829 --> 00:10:37,920
that can account for this picking things

273
00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:39,839
up in popular culture

274
00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:42,320
they get it right away they understand

275
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:44,240
the whole spectrum

276
00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:45,760
therefore to say you're an abduction

277
00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:47,839
researcher means automatically

278
00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:50,800
that you're an idiot because you're not

279
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:52,480
researching anything that is actually

280
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:54,320
real you're you're researching

281
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:56,240
a combination of different fields of

282
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:57,920
things you know for a sociologist a

283
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:00,320
massive intimidation or whatever it is

284
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:03,279
and and and and therefore your judgment

285
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:04,959
is called into question

286
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:08,640
and and uh really not a legitimate

287
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:11,040
academic basically you know there's

288
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:12,880
something wrong with you

289
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:15,279
you know and that's the way uh people

290
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,200
who do this kind of work in academics

291
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:19,279
are treated now when i say that

292
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,399
there aren't a whole lot of people in

293
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:22,160
academics to do this kind of work that's

294
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:22,959
right

295
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:26,800
in fact there are none who do uh uh um

296
00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:28,959
hypnosis with abductees there used to be

297
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:29,839
some

298
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:32,880
uh uh but unfortunately they got old

299
00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:34,079
they retired or

300
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:37,760
uh uh in in a couple of cases they

301
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,720
they died uh heart disease and cancer

302
00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:42,560
and things like that and and now

303
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:45,600
i i was left as the only one i think and

304
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,360
i'm not sure maybe some people are doing

305
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:49,519
it on the slide that i don't know about

306
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:53,279
but i think i was the only one left

307
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:56,560
as a result um

308
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,240
rather than i mean my first book was

309
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,000
straight history the ufo controversy in

310
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:02,399
america but when i published secret life

311
00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:05,600
and then the threat uh

312
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:08,320
which which was simply considered not

313
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:10,320
history now i had tenure

314
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:12,160
and the tenure system which is now under

315
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:14,480
serious attack throughout the country

316
00:12:19,509 --> 00:12:17,600
unfortunately uh without tenure i would

317
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:19,519
not have been able to do this within an

318
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:21,360
academic setting

319
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:24,639
a tenure protected me from being

320
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:28,000
fired outright wow

321
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:31,200
so uh so if people say well tenure is no

322
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,480
good it's gotta go they don't know what

323
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:34,320
they're talking about it protects

324
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:36,240
academic freedom that's what it was set

325
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:39,279
up for and that's what it does do

326
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:42,800
so uh but in fact let's stop my career

327
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:46,000
basically in its tracks and uh

328
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,079
the way the way the academic world works

329
00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:50,160
is if you're an assistant professor that

330
00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:52,079
means your professor without

331
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:55,040
tenure you have not received tenure yet

332
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:57,440
if you're an associate professor

333
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:59,680
that means you have tenure you were

334
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:01,360
granted tenure

335
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:04,639
by the board of trustees of of temple

336
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:05,839
university

337
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:08,800
already recommended by the chair the

338
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:09,279
dean

339
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:15,200
the president and then the board of

340
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,880
trustees

341
00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:18,720
the ones who grant tenure and that is

342
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:21,279
what happened in 1981 for me

343
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:23,920
uh and then i i you know then i

344
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,040
published uh

345
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:28,000
um the threat i mean uh the secret life

346
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:29,519
and the threat

347
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:32,399
and the next step up is full professor

348
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:33,120
that means

349
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:36,160
that you uh have national recognition in

350
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:37,519
your fields

351
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:40,000
a full professor is like is the end step

352
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,279
it's wonderful it's great everybody

353
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:43,360
wants it of course i wanted it

354
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:45,279
that's that would never have never

355
00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:46,639
happened

356
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,199
and when you retire at temple university

357
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:51,360
you have a way of retiring with emeritus

358
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:53,279
status that is the same meritorious

359
00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:54,639
service

360
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:57,680
and technically you're still on faculty

361
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,160
then

362
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:01,199
see means you have all sorts of

363
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,079
privileges

364
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,959
that you can you can use the the faculty

365
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:06,320
dining room you can do this you can do

366
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:07,040
that you can

367
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:08,480
there's all sorts of privileges you got

368
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:10,480
as you're still on faculty

369
00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:14,399
but i was not granted that either uh

370
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:16,480
and uh that that was the sort of the

371
00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:18,079
final cut

372
00:14:21,269 --> 00:14:19,600
and you know it left me with a certain

373
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:21,279
amount of bitterness

374
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:24,000
but at the same time i you know i walked

375
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:25,920
into it eyes open i knew that this was

376
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,519
going to have a deleterious

377
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:30,480
uh effect on my on my career i i knew

378
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:31,680
that this was

379
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:34,959
this was not good and the situation is

380
00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:36,880
as follows people would call me up

381
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,560
graduate students

382
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:40,399
in history and in other areas other

383
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:43,760
areas sociology psychology and so forth

384
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:46,000
who want to do a dissertation involving

385
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:47,920
ufos or abductions or

386
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:50,560
and i just tell them to stay the hell

387
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,440
away from it

388
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:53,839
yeah well let me ask you this if you

389
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:55,760
could start all over again

390
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:58,240
turn back the clock would you take the

391
00:15:02,629 --> 00:14:59,839
same path

392
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:02,639
uh yes i would you know one does not get

393
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:02,959
the

394
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:05,440
opportunity to make a contribution in

395
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:07,120
something that is potentially of

396
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,480
overwhelming importance and

397
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:12,399
uh the work i i would have done in

398
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,839
history would have been important for

399
00:15:16,629 --> 00:15:14,880
historians

400
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:16,639
and maybe even changed the way we look

401
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:19,279
at the past a little tiny bit

402
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:22,560
but um nothing approaches uh

403
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,560
the importance of the abduction

404
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:26,240
phenomenon especially

405
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:28,320
uh the we and the ufonam which in my

406
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:30,160
opinion are one of the same thing

407
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:33,440
and uh and to have to be an academic

408
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,320
working in this

409
00:15:37,509 --> 00:15:37,040
really was uh something that that that

410
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:37,519
was

411
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,800
uh not unique but but there were very

412
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:42,160
few people who did that

413
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:45,440
and uh so i had this opportunity

414
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:48,639
and i took it i mean you know i i i

415
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:51,920
my priorities uh in terms of of

416
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,600
of making a contribution i think were

417
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,279
greater than my priorities for my own

418
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:56,560
particular life

419
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:58,720
wow now just to follow up on this last

420
00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:00,000
thing that i was saying

421
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:02,480
when graduate students call me up i tell

422
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:03,920
them to stay the hell away from it

423
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:04,480
because

424
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:07,360
the following things happen if they work

425
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,639
in a subject

426
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,440
other than ufo cults ufo religions or

427
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:13,519
the psychology of people who see ufos

428
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:14,800
which everybody does

429
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:16,639
if you look at academic press books

430
00:16:20,710 --> 00:16:18,639
they're all related in some way or

431
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:20,720
another or most of them are anyways to

432
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,600
um

433
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:24,000
ufo religions ufo cults popular culture

434
00:16:27,829 --> 00:16:25,440
and ufos you know but not

435
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:27,839
addressing the ufo or abduction for some

436
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:28,560
uh

437
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:35,600
one book by um susan clancy that does it

438
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:38,720
it is the world's worst book i was going

439
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:40,079
to talk to you about that and what your

440
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:42,240
opinion was of her work

441
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,279
it's it's factually incorrect

442
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:47,839
on the one hand and just stupidly done

443
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:49,040
in my opinion

444
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,360
and uh i i certainly don't want to upset

445
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:52,880
her by saying things like that but just

446
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:53,839
my opinion

447
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:57,199
uh i have i've already upset her and i'm

448
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:57,440
on

449
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:00,720
a number of other ways um but uh

450
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:03,279
it's just not a very good book it was

451
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:04,799
the problem is the book was not

452
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:10,789
that's it for david jacobs if you go to

453
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:13,520
our website podcastufo.com

454
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:16,640
that's episode number 27 and you can

455
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,120
click on that and go to about minute 17

456
00:18:12,830 --> 00:17:20,640
and you'll pick up where you left off